Authenticity and appearance

[monty]

i like collecting old postcards and pictures of tommies and on a brief look they all look the same, but as oll and rupert say we all get in to character, they are all different in minor ways

All looking the same is great its what mop is used to in films, obviously not a true representation ( you cant fire an uzi 9mm one haded trust me i know ) but if you give them what there used too add a little personal touch like guv says heypresto ... great group

Perhaps we should practise our characters a little more
what i would like is to start a list of words we can chuck in to sentences that were used then but not know, ive only ever seen this in civil war and medieval re-enac.

my tuppence worth for now Monty

[Eddie]

Interesting topic,

I am pretty new to reenacting, when I first started collecting my kit I tried where possible to buy war dated equipment.....I dunno why it just seemed 'better' to do this, I have seen plenty of threads on other forums saying that WW2 dated equipment should be preserved instead of used and abused in the field, ie. use 50's dated webbing as it retains the same pattern for many years, alas I have always had a soft spot for war dated stuff.............

When buying my uniform from SOF I opted for the wartime economy 1940 pttn BD, this was because I wanted to go for a bit of individuality with my display, so many of the pictures I see guys are wearing 1937 pttn uniform, and sometimes I wish I had gone for that so I could do earlier impressions or not have such baggy unruley trousers

After I had been collecting my kit for a while and I started to economise I started looking at other stuff, such as a Bakelite razor instead of the metal one for my washroll and also a Wehrmacht butter dish to keep my tea ration in.. Which can be passed off as liberated/captured equipment......

Anyway what I mean to say is that when I am getting my kit I try and make it as diverse as possible, although I will try not to bring any modern 'stuff' with me as it has no place in WW2 reenacting if on public display.

It has been said that it is important to look uniformed in appearance as a group, but I think it as also as important to have a certain amount of individuality within a group as soldiers of the time had.

My thropenny bit,

Eddie.

[rupert]

When filming PRIVATE RYAN Spielberg insisted that everyone on the beach scene carry the actual weight in kit, (they had rubber guns and plastic charges but the weight was roughly the same).

This was so that every one understood what it was like to move in the kit when fully laden so as to avoid the whole LONGEST DAY running up the beach like banshees thing.

This is kind of reflected in the approach to reenactment that I (and most lads in the group I suspect) lean toward. I admit that I dont have every piece of kit going thats just a matter of time and money; however I for one dont feel right in kit if I dont have a pocket full of loose change (hapennys and farthings) and my pay book somwhere in my b,d's.

Remember WE wear the kit not the other way round.

a few things like pictures of the missus (black and white)
or a 40's jazz mag are not issued kit, but they make the difference to both the public and myself.

remeber that most of the public dont have any experience of being a soldier(not talking about veterans here) therefore a lee enfield 303 is just a gun, a tommy with gun in full webbing is a soldier. But a tommy in shirt sleeves with a f*g and a cup of tea is less removed than this its something that the public,and veterans included, can relate to.

This harks back to earlier comments taht basically if WE are authentic in our approach then the kit and caboodle will follow.

Its worth remembering that in our life time there will probably be no veterans left alive, therefore accuracy and authentic portrayal are incredibly important on our part, for both kit and character, lest we let Hollywood tell the story of the stalwart British Tommy...The men that won the war.

p.s. Monty may have some wartime pictures for you, cant have the originals but can get copies of them for you if ya fancy.

[Tiny]

I totally agree with you there Rupert, My Bren mags will eventually be full of WW2 dated cases, filled with sugar (to simulate the weight of the powder).

[Guv]

WOW = 8 x 30 rd mags, 1 x 50 rd bandoleer PLUS your personal ammo.

Goodonyermate.

[OLL]

What us Lance Jacks have to put up wth eh Tiny!!!

[Tiny]

To right lads, I would gladly carry it. Although my shoulders might be thinking differently ;D.

My problem is my small pack isn't full enough, I really need to get my personal kit together, but to be honest apart from the obvious I'm unsure of what the lads would have carried. Can anyone help on this

[rupert]

Now theres a doozy, the ultimate reenactment question.

WHAT DID A TOMMY CARRY IN HIS SMALL PACK?

The truth is tiny....wait for it....Whatever he bloody needed at the time.

Ive spoken to vets who dumped ammo on D day to fill their packs with extra f*gs, now this may be bravado 60yrs after the event...conversly U.S. paratroops ditche d much of their unimportant kit, wash kit gas masks ect after they landed in the boggy ground around st mare eglise (hence the vast amount of pictures of 82nd and 101 with beards on d+2 I do have first hand experience of carrying beer cans in my gas mask bag during gulf war part 1


And this kind of harks back to the earlier question of uniformity and evidence ect.

Maybe a small display could be put together for the public with a short talk.
we have one kitted out as per regulations
and another kitted out as per having been in the field for 6months just to show the text book and the reality.
ripped bd's n stuff
whadda ya think? might make a good demo piece.

[monty]

hi rupe

scan some pics they would be interesting to look at, and i love the idea of the post 6 month small pack kit thats a great idea

would take some long conversations over a few beers to agree what to put in though

this is probably one of the most interesting threads to be posted on here keep it going i enjoy the read

cheers monty

[Max]

Another question is when we say Authenticity of Kit, What period of the war? also as we do the Leicesters, do we limit ourselves only to the kit they used? and the period in that they fought?
What would be good if we could get photos of the leicesters as they land and so on, and look how their appearance changes.

[rupert]

Good point Max. I guess vets are the boys to ask as to waht they were issued. But as we all know thats gonna differ wildly. I think approaching the hobby from the point of view "What would YOUR tommy carry in his pack"?.

bY this I mean what would the persona that adopt when at events carry in his pack? I think this is where the human aspect of the hobby filters in. what we could do is agree upon a uniform set of kit that every member carries (ie wash kit, bren mags, tin hat the basics as agreed by the group) and then allow each member to personalise that kit with letters, memrobelia and personal effects, including captured items.

Obviously we dont want anybody tearing around with an mg 42 in ss camo jackets, but butter dishes and the odd torch or trench knife might make a handy addition
Much like the kraut hat in the savoy.

What needs to be done is for us to cobble together a list of regulation kit. whadda ya say, guess guv and Chris would be the dudes to see re this.

[Tiny]

I totally agree, a standard kit list would be great, although maybe keep it to a minimum, just for the lads who don't want to go the whole hog and fork out loads on personal kit. Or maybe two lists? One a basic list of kit, the other an indepth list of all personal issuse kit, and then we could have that chat over a few beers about all the extra kit.

The more I do with this hobby the more I love it ;D

[Eddie]

On the subject of captured items, obviously you can't go to overboard on it...... to the point where you blur the lines of what force you are actualy serving with......or make yourself look like a tomb raider, ie. swiped off the boche where he lay.

However I do think they make a nice touch and some items are more practical or cheaper, that is identical to WW2 issue but produced to a later date... Like my Bakelite butter dish which I picked up for 99p and is the same as WW2 German issue.

To my knowledge my Grandad who was with the Army in Africa bought home 2 captured items, 1 was a Wehrmacht stamped Knife/Fork/Sthingy set which locked together, the other was a silver emboidred AFRIKA KORPS cufftitle. The Cuttlery set was definately for practical reasons rather than the Cufftitle that was a souvenir.

[rupert]

Absolutely eddie, no staff cars or zeppelins. But k.f.s and the odd torch or cup would make a nice unit trophy.

chap I know came back from germany with 2 p38's a silver plated colt 45 nazi dagger and more U.S. kit than you can shake a stick at. this however is not the avenue that we should go down....

[Guv]

Back to the title of the original thread.
Reality vs practicality.

If you want to have a look at what the 'powers that be' thought you should wear and carry into combat, take a look at the famous series of photographs of Tom Paine.

In reality, a lot of that kit would be 'binned' or shared between a rifleman and his 'oppo'.

The basic fighting unit of the Army since the introduction of the 'fire and maneuver' tactic has been the pair.
These have been in use since 1797 and the introduction of the Rifle Corps and the Baker rifle.
The basic idea of one man advancing whilst his 'oppo' covers him is still in use today - the idea of two riflemen working 'hand in glove' on the field of battle is nothing new, and was not any different in WW2 to their fathers war two decades before.

So if we have 2 men working and living together in the field, we have an ideal opportunity to reduce weight by ditching surplus and duplicated kit.
One man carries the personal admin and washroll, the other carries the cooker and fuel - this way we can ditch a mug, 2 mes-stins, a towel etc.etc.etc.
Popular items to ditch were, the assault respirator, the E-tool (useless and left in company transport in favour of the GS pick or shovel).

More room for essentials - ammunition, water and food. The individuals kit could be brought back up to establishment requirements for inspections etc.

This would be an ideal display for a pair of blokes - compaired to the poor sod in the next tent who would display the full monty.

Any takers?................